I’ve never interviewed Bernie Sanders, and I probably never will. But if I did, it would go something like this:
C: Good morning! Thanks for meeting me.
S: I always look forward to an opportunity to get the word out.
C: I have to warn you–I’ve defended you against people who blame you for Clinton’s loss in 2016, and I have no issues with you personally, but I’ve been very critical of some of your policy proposals.
S: I’m a big boy. I can take it.
C: We don’t have much time, so I’m going to focus on matters of general political philosophy, and particularly on your concept of the “revolution.”
S: OK.
C: It seems to me that there are two prongs to the “revolution.” The first one is to reduce inequality. You propose to do this by taxing the rich and regulating their activities, while substantially increasing the size and scope of the welfare state for the benefit of the less powerful.
S: That’s accurate.
C: The second prong is a tactical one: you plan to bring about the “revolution” by expanding the base of the Democratic Party by flipping the votes of struggling white workers and by getting poor people who haven’t been involved in the process to vote.
S: That’s part of it, too.
C: Let me start by asking some questions about the first prong. You have called yourself a socialist, but what you’re calling for isn’t socialism by the textbook definition, because you aren’t proposing widespread nationalizations. Do you agree?
S: Yes. Call it socialism for the 21st century, if you like.
C: Why call it socialism at all? In my experience, the word scares the crap out of most Americans, especially the elderly.
S: I’m just trying to be honest. Historically, I’ve always been to the left of the mainstream of the Democratic Party, and I need a term to express that. Anyway, younger people aren’t afraid of the term, and they’re my base.
C: As we both know, older people vote at much higher levels than younger people. Do you really think you can win an election without their support?
S: When they understand my program better, they’ll figure out it’s a much better deal for them then the status quo. It’s just a question of getting the word out.
C: But you understand that an elderly person probably isn’t going to be enthused about changes to the system that are so dramatic that they can be called a “revolution.” They just want to hang on to what they’ve got.
S: Again, I’m offering them a better deal. They’ll go for it if they understand it.
C: Elizabeth Warren is as determined to reduce inequality as you are, and some of her measures are arguably to the left of yours, but she’s careful not to call herself a socialist. How do you feel about that?
S: I think it’s fair to say that Elizabeth and I are fellow travelers in a lot of ways. If she chooses to call herself a capitalist for tactical reasons, that’s up to her. It’s just a word. It’s the policies themselves that really matter.
C: How would you feel if the “revolution” succeeded, but with a different leader?
S: I would be fine with that. Trump notwithstanding, it’s not about ego. It’s about doing what’s right for the American people.
C: Do you think you can get the “revolution” through Congress without abolishing the filibuster?
S: I don’t know. We’re obviously focused on winning the current election. If we do a good enough job, the issue will never come up. If it does come up, I’ll deal with that later.
C: What would you offer the Republicans in order to abolish the filibuster?
S: Again, that’s too speculative. I won’t worry about that unless and until I have to.
C: Let’s move on to the second prong. How do you plan to flip the white workers?
S: By appealing to their self-interest, obviously. The system is screwing them over. We need to change that.
C: But a large number of them are values voters who don’t vote their strict economic self-interest. How do you overcome that?
S: You just have to work hard and stay on message. There’s nothing else to be done.
C: How do you get an African-American who is being hassled by a racist cop to agree that the cop is his friend, and a Wall Street banker is his real enemy? That’s the crux of the issue.
S: Again, you just have to focus on the real issues and stay on message.
C: In some ways, you’re in the position of a union organizer around the end of the nineteenth century, trying to keep different ethnic factions united around an economic message.
S: That sounds about right.
C: What historical evidence can you rely on to support the notion that you can win the election by ignoring swing voters and engaging in class warfare? It didn’t work for you in 2016, even within the Democratic Party.
S: The closest thing would be FDR, obviously.
C: But he was dealing with a national economic emergency. We have 4 percent unemployment today. How can you possibly reach the same result?
S: I’m an optimist. You have to be in my business, particularly if you believe in the things I do.
C: Would you agree that the Democratic Party has always had a large identity politics component?
S: Sure. I don’t disagree with that. I recognize that women, and African-Americans, and other groups have gotten a raw deal in this country. I have a history of standing with them in their fight for justice. I understand perfectly that identity is important to a large part of the party. I just don’t want it to overwhelm the economic message. Identity issues are tied in with the overall question of equality. That’s what I’m trying to deal with.
C: If I were in your position, I would be doing two things to try to heal the identity/class split in the Democratic Party. First, I would be working really hard to make the party more tolerant on identity issues like guns and religion that resonate with the white workers that you need for the “revolution”. Second, I would be out evangelizing in every state, including the deep red states, instead of running up the score with the base in blue states. I don’t see the evidence that you’re doing that.
S: You don’t see everything we’re doing. It’s a movement, and it goes beyond me. You see it in the teacher strikes in the red states, for example.
C: Thank you for your time.